Merlin
Warrent Officer
Posts: 155
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Post by Merlin on Sept 14, 2005 21:35:10 GMT -5
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Post by Illithius on Sept 14, 2005 22:07:13 GMT -5
Seperation of State and Church... not everyone believes in God.
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Shire
Fresh Meat
Posts: 72
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Post by Shire on Sept 15, 2005 9:47:06 GMT -5
Very true. I've never really had a problem with saying the pledge but I can see how some people might. Not everyone believes in a God or your God.
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Post by Hellcat on Sept 15, 2005 11:36:03 GMT -5
I agree, but why are the majority who do believe in god not allowed to say it? Works both ways. If you dont like it, dont say it. But lets surely not punish those who do. Doesnt specify a specific god btw.
Somthing to think on...
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Shire
Fresh Meat
Posts: 72
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Post by Shire on Sept 15, 2005 15:57:07 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with the pledge being done during school. What I do have a problem with is being made to say it. But like you said the people who want to do it should be allowed to.
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Post by Hellcat on Sept 15, 2005 18:13:38 GMT -5
Exactly. If you dont want to say it, fine. Thats your parogitive. (Its also mine to call you an asshole.) But what eats me up is the fact that they are forcing schools to stop. If you dont like it, dont say it, but dont make the rest of us not say it because you have no god.
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Post by Illithius on Sept 15, 2005 19:42:03 GMT -5
Well you have to look at it more then one way. There is seperation of church and state. There is the fact that the kids that don't say it may be singled out and picked on or beat up cause they don't believe in god or your god. Perhaps even certain teachers will discriminate against you.
I know that in more then one school I went to, the pledge was forced. If you didn't do it you were punished, even the kids that stood and didn't say anything were punished.
Think about it a little, if your kid was picked on because he didn't do something like all the other kids would you put up with it? Would you put up with a teacher that discriminates againt your kid cause he didn't do something? Would you want someone to punish your kid for doing something that he didn't believe was right?
Tell me do you seriously have that much faith in children let alone the human race to "just get along." Even if it is over just some stupid idea/thing.
Tell me John, why is it that you are so mad about this? Its not like you are the one being stopped from doing it, it is children that don't even know what it means for the first 4 years of school. I'm sure you don't stand up every morning and look at a flag and say the pledge do you? Is it really that important?
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Post by Obelisk on Sept 16, 2005 17:45:27 GMT -5
Everyone has the right to their own religion, but this country was founded under Christianity and thus the phrase "one nation under God" is perfectly acceptable. Also, if you live IN AMERICA, you should have to plege allegiance TO AMERICA. If you have a problem with that, then you dont need to be in my country.
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Post by Illithius on Sept 16, 2005 18:10:39 GMT -5
Everyone has the right to their own religion, but this country was founded under Christianity and thus the phrase "one nation under God" is perfectly acceptable. Also, if you live IN AMERICA, you should have to plege allegiance TO AMERICA. If you have a problem with that, then you dont need to be in my country. Well then I guess it is time to change the pledge, so God isn't part of it. This country isn't founded under christianty so much so as it is the blood of our ancestors that wished for freedom. Religion may have played a role it what happened, but it is not what makes this country what it is. I agree that you need to give your loyalty to your country, but your religion should be seperated from that. This is what this whole damn case is about. |
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Post by Hellcat on Sept 16, 2005 23:23:13 GMT -5
I agree that you shouldnt be forced to say anything, but dont get pissed if I exercize my right to think you are a dumbass trying to get camera time. Read me? You also use of words like "may" and "perhaps". Speculatory words dont carry much weight. "Perhaps" they do get picked on. "Perhaps" they should leave the room if they dont like saying "under god". "Perhaps" they should omit that part out if they dont like saying it. If they are being punished for not saying it, then somthing is wrong. But calling lawyers and throwing a tantrum over those two words detracts from their credability greatly. Pledge doesnt specify one btw. Thats unfortunate and wrong. If you dont want to say it, dont. No one should be forced or punished. I personally have never experienced this. It was always optional here. I find it ammusing that you use the word "faith". Heh..  On the contrary, you seem to be the one a bit hot under the collar on the whole subject. My real beef with the whole anti pledge crowd is that I dont think they are bitching because they are athiests. I think its mostly publicity and their own little 15 minutes of fame. I mean, if they were really that solid in their beliefs (or lack of them) they wouldnt be complaining. Comprende?  Huh?  You say your pledge, I'l say mine. Is it really that difficult? Next topic: FLAG BURNING |
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Post by Hellcat on Sept 16, 2005 23:26:40 GMT -5
BTW, when I say "you" I dont mean it personally. So dont take it that way.
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Post by Obelisk on Sept 17, 2005 2:41:07 GMT -5
Sorry, im very conservative and I dont like outsiders changing the principles of this country. All people are welcome in America. Im not racist, I think having foreigners in our country is ausome. I dont like people suing over the first "infringment of rights" they encounter. There just tryin to make a quick buck cus there lazy smucks willing to sue over anything! God in the pledge or on our coins is gonna stay! You dont like it: dont say the pledge a use checks!
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Post by Illithius on Sept 17, 2005 7:56:33 GMT -5
Just trying to throw out there another side to the matter. The topic was pretty one sided the whole time, I just wanted you guys to look at it in another way.
I guess I got a little to into it when I thought about my past experiences and how they played a role here. Moving around every 3 years when your young can hold some bad experiences.
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Post by Obelisk on Sept 17, 2005 9:34:50 GMT -5
Its cool. Nothing personal. I like these heated debates.
Here's my thought. I dont think a child in K or 1st knows much about faith. If they really dont like God then shouldnt be made to recite it in a facion that agnolages our flag and whatever god they hail, but they should be made to "learn" it. They can learn it along with the rest of their social studies but they need to know it because its a part of OUR heritage. You dont have to be African, Mexican, Indian to have a culture. I think that people forget that America has a culture too.
BTW, Weither your Christian, Jewish, Muslem, Hindu, Bhudist... you still worshop "a god". "God" is a noun and a name. But "god" can be any higher power you hail too. And "GOD" is the same as "god".
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jsig
Fresh Meat
Posts: 1
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Post by jsig on Sept 17, 2005 9:58:59 GMT -5
If the words "under god" are in anything it should not be in the schools. With "under god" in the pledge and the schools forcing kids to say then they are forcing religion on kids who may not want it. There can't be any religion in schools it doesn't matter what form it is in. Whether it has god in it or not the pledge should be treated like prayer. Do it on your own time and leave the people out who don't want to participate.
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